Publishing Talks Interview with Jane Friedman of Hot Sheet

Publishing Talks began first as a series of conversations with book industry professionals and others involved in media and technology, mostly talking about the future of publishing, books, and culture. It was great fun talking with people in the book industry about the evolution of publishing in the context of technology, culture, and economics. Over the years, I talked with a variety of editors, publishers and others, innovators and leaders in independent publishing and bookselling in the past, and into the present.

These conversations have been inspirational to me. I have had the pleasure of speaking with people who have influenced and changed contemporary literature and culture. I’ve also had the opportunity to speak with a number of friends and colleagues in the book business, always trying to explore and understand the complex web of books, authors and readers that is at the heart of our evolving culture.

Every year, ever more new books are published, and the “rules of the game” evolve faster than most of us can keep up. Given the pace of change in the book industry, I could not think of anyone better to learn about the latest trends and developments than Jane Friedman, whose insights and breadth of knowledge are unmatched among industry observers. I first spoke with her in 2015 and then again in 2022, and I always learn a great deal from her in every conversation we have.

Jane publishes a bi-weekly industry newsletter,  a must-read for anyone involved with publishing, called The Hot Sheet. Her most recent book is The Business of Being a Writer (University of Chicago Press). Collaborating with The Authors Guild, she wrote The Authors Guild Guide to Self-Publishing. In 2023, Jane was awarded Publishing Commentator of the Year by Digital Book World.

You might also have heard of Jane because of her experience with AI book fraud, which she wrote about in August 2023. She has put together a roundup of the extensive coverage and interviews about what happened, which you can explore here.

And she publishers yet another newsletter for writers and creators called Electric Speed, which is also worthwhile subscribing to.

Her website offers a wide range of services and information for writers: “I report on the book publishing industry and help authors understand the business. I’ve been working in book publishing since the 1990s, but my views are not from the 1990s. Amidst rapid change in the industry, writers need honest and unbiased guidance to make the best decisions for their careers. I hope to offer you a signal amidst the noise.”

Jane Friedman is a very busy woman, I am truly grateful that she was able to take some time to talk to me about the latest goings on in publishing.

Writerscast began in 2008! Thanks to all who have participated and all of you who have listened to this series over the past 15 years. It’s been fun.

 

Publishing Talks: Interview with Dan Harke of Mayo Clinic Press

October 5, 2022 by  
Filed under PublishingTalks, The Future

Publishing Talks began as a series of conversations with book industry professionals and others involved in media and technology, mostly talking about the future of publishing, books, and culture. I’ve spent time talking with people in the book industry about how publishing is evolving in the context of technology, culture, and economics.

Some time back, this series broadened to include conversations that go beyond the future of publishing. In an effort to document the literary world, I’ve talked with a variety of editors, publishers and others who have been innovators and leaders in independent publishing in the past and into the present.

These conversations have been inspirational to me on many levels. I have gotten to speak with visionaries and entrepreneurs, as well as editors and publishers who have influenced and changed contemporary literature and culture. I’ve also had the opportunity to speak with a number of friends and colleagues I have met over the many years I have been in the book business.

This week, I talked to Dan Harke, who manages the Mayo Clinic Press in Rochester, Minnesota. Mayo Clinic is doubtless familiar to Writerscast listeners – it is probably the best-known health care organization in America. It has 73,000 employees (including thousands of MDs) and cares for more than 1.4 million people annually. Mayo is almost always ranked as the number one hospital in the US.

For many years, Mayo Clinic licensed content to established publishers, and sold books direct to consumer only through its mail order business associated with its long-running Mayo Health Letter. Several years ago, Mayo established the Mayo Clinic Press to publish its own books, and now is in the process of growing to become a full line trade publisher, while still maintaining its mission-driven commitment to healthcare for the greater good. Aside from consumer health books, Mayo is now publishing children’s books, ebooks, audio books and podcasts, as well as its still vibrant health letter.

Dan comes to publishing from a diverse background with skills and knowledge in health care, marketing, and innovation, which gives him a very different perspective about publishing than many of us with experience mostly in trade publishing, so I think this conversation will be of interest to many Publishing Talks listeners.

You can look at MCP’s terrific website here.

In the interest of full disclosure, I want to mention that I am a consultant to MCP on trade publishing and marketing matters.

Publishing Talks: Interview with Mark Hurst of Creative Good

Publishing Talks began as a series of conversations with book industry professionals and others involved in media and technology, mostly about the future of publishing, books, and culture. I’ve spent time talking with people in the book industry about how publishing is evolving in the context of fast-changing technology, culture, and economics.

Along the way, this series broadened to include conversations that go beyond the future of publishing. In an effort to document the literary world, I’ve talked with a variety of editors, publishers and others who have been innovators and leaders in independent publishing in the past and into the present.

These conversations have been inspirational to me on many levels. I have gotten to speak with visionaries and entrepreneurs, as well as editors and publishers who have influenced and changed contemporary literature and culture. I’ve also had the opportunity to speak with a number of friends and colleagues I have met over the many years I have been in the book business.

The latest visionary is Mark Hurst, who founded and operates Creative Good, a New York-based consultancy and creative platform. Mark has spent his career writing, speaking, and advising teams about how to create better products and services. I’ve been reading his impressive writing for years, and have long admired his thinking and approach to technology, culture, and human behavior. Much of what he writes and talks about can be applied to the publishing industry, especially as it relates to powerfully centralized tech companies like Amazon, Apple, and Google.

Along the way, the very creative Hurst also created the useful and cool Good Todo mobile productivity platform, the world’s first cross-platform todo list, which he described in his first book, Bit Literacy, in which he introduced the “empty inbox” method of managing email (now better known as Inbox Zero – a practice I try to follow daily with mixed success).

Mark also hosts Techtonic – see techtonic.fm – a weekly FM radio show on WFMU. Here’s the Techtonic podcast.

His book Customers Included describes how teams and organizations can create successful products and strategies by including customers, a practice I have often thought publishers could benefit from applying to marketing matters.

Brooklyn 1776, the educational mobile videogame by Hurst and the Creative Good team, won the 2016 Brooklyn Innovation Award for best indie video game.

Mark earned both a bachelor’s and a master’s degrees in computer science from MIT. He lives in New York City with his wife and son.

It was great fun for me to have the opportunity to speak with Mark for this Publishing Talks series on Writerscast. We talked about a wide range of issues that should be of interest to anyone interested in current publishing and media technology matters.

Website: creativegood.com
Email: mark@creativegood.com

Publishing Talks: Interview with Jane Friedman

Publishing Talks started as a series of conversations with book industry professionals and others involved in media and technology, mostly talking about the future of publishing, books, and culture. It was great fun talking with people in the book industry about the evolution of publishing in the context of technology, culture, and economics.

Later this series broadened considerably. In the past few years, I’ve talked with a variety of editors, publishers and others who have been innovators and leaders in independent publishing and bookselling in the past and into the present.

These conversations have been inspirational to me. I have had the pleasure of speaking with visionaries and entrepreneurs, editors, publishers and others who have influenced and changed contemporary literature and culture. I’ve also had the opportunity to speak with a number of friends and colleagues in the book business.

I’ve not had occasion to speak with the same person twice during all the years this series has gone on. But I really wanted to speak again with Jane Friedman, whose insights and knowledge I thoroughly respect, and get her sense of the current state of publishing and bookselling, especially as it affects writers and independent publishers. Our last Publishing Talks conversation was in 2015! Much has changed since then, and there was much for us to talk about.

Jane publishes a terrific newsletter I read religiously called The Hot Sheet. Her most recent book is The Business of Being a Writer (University of Chicago Press). Collaborating with The Authors Guild, she wrote The Authors Guild Guide to Self-Publishing. Her website offers a wide range of services and information for writers: “I report on the book publishing industry and help authors understand the business. I’ve been working in book publishing since the 1990s, but my views are not from the 1990s. Amidst rapid change in the industry, writers need honest and unbiased guidance to make the best decisions for their careers. I hope to offer you a signal amidst the noise.”

And I hope this conversation does the same.

Publishing Talks: Interview with Jeff Deutsch of Seminary Co-op Bookstores

October 12, 2021 by  
Filed under PublishingTalks, The Future

Publishing Talks began as a series of conversations with book industry professionals and others involved in media and technology, mostly talking about the future of publishing, books, and culture. I’ve spent time talking with people in the book industry about how publishing is evolving in the context of technology, culture, and economics.

Some time back, this series broadened to include conversations that go beyond the future of publishing. In an effort to document the literary world, I’ve talked with a variety of editors, publishers and others who have been innovators and leaders in independent publishing in the past and into the present.

These conversations have been inspirational to me on many levels. I have gotten to speak with visionaries and entrepreneurs, as well as editors and publishers who have influenced and changed contemporary literature and culture. I’ve also had the opportunity to speak with a number of friends and colleagues I have met over the many years I have been in the book business.

This week’s podcast is one I am really excited about. Jeff Deutsch is the director of Chicago’s Seminary Co-op Bookstores, which calls itself the first not-for-profit bookstore in the United States whose mission is devoted to bookselling (there are other nonprofit bookstores of course, generally components of literary centers, like Beyond Baroque in Venice, California, Woodland Pattern in Milwaukee, and Writers and Books in Rochester, NY are examples).

Last spring I read a report of a Book Industry Study Group panel that included Jeff, and what he talked about immediately caught my attention. Deutsch was reported to have said that the model of bookselling we’ve inherited needs to be rethought: just facilitating more sales, more efficiently, is not the way for bookstores to survive. A bookstore that actually means something to readers will need to carry a deep backlist and to spend time helping readers discover new voices, new texts.

During that panel Deutsch said, “The publishing world and distributors—what you value is not our ability to sell books,” because independent bookstores can never sell in the same volume as Amazon. “Yet we all know how important bookstores are,” he said. As publishers and booksellers once knew, developing readerships for books and authors takes time and devotion that have been boiled out of the entire process now.

Jane Friedman’s outstanding book industry newsletter Hot Sheet compared Jeff’s approach to the Slow Food movement (I think that idea makes sense – I wrote a manifesto for publishers a few years ago on the idea of Slow Publishing, but never developed it enough to publish). Nina Barrett, owner of Bookends & Beginnings in Illinois (which has filed a lawsuit against Amazon), also on the BISG panel said “I think it’s like Alice Waters talking for decades about a sustainable food ecosystem and ultimately revolutionizing the food industry that way. That’s the point we’re at.”

As Jane pointed out, “independent booksellers will lose every time if they base their worth on the mere transactional value of selling books. His stance—that bookselling has a deeper meaning and cultural value—is indeed how boutique and online retailers outside of the Amazon ecosystem are positioning themselves for success.”

Deutsch also said, “We should figure out models that support the work that we’re trying to do, not shoehorn this other model of retail that is really just about buying and selling and not about culture….We all have vocational awe, but couldn’t we have vocational awe and still make a decent living?”

This conceptual framework resonates with me and I think is worthy of much more discussion. Why shouldn’t there be a nonprofit bookselling sector to promote literary and other noncommercial books and authors, just as there is a nonprofit theater? Why should we continuously try to fit a crucially important culture activity into a commercial model, and always fail?

I hope that hearing Jeff talk about this concept will help stimulate further discussion and concrete action. Please feel free to comment and if you are interested in helping, please be in touch.

Connect to the Seminary Co-op Bookstores website here.

Before joining the Co-op Deutsch was the director of stores for the Stanford Bookstore Group and prior to that managed the Cal Student Store at the University of California, Berkeley.

Publishing Talks: Interview with Ben Fox of Shepherd.com

September 20, 2021 by  
Filed under PublishingTalks, The Future

Publishing Talks began as a series of conversations with book industry professionals and others involved in media and technology, mostly talking about the future of publishing, books, and culture. I’ve spent quite a bit of time over the years talking with people in the book industry about how publishing has evolved in the context of technology, culture, and economics.

Some time back, this series broadened to include conversations that go beyond the future of publishing. In an effort to document the literary world, I’ve talked with a variety of editors, publishers, booksellers, innovators, and leaders in publishing from the past into the present.

These conversations have been inspirational to me in many ways. I have gotten to speak with visionaries and entrepreneurs, as well as editors and publishers who have influenced and changed contemporary literature and culture. I’ve also had the opportunity to speak with a number of friends and colleagues I have met over the decades I have been in the book business.

Everyone in the book business recognizes the challenge of matching books to readers and vice versa. Search and discovery are the defining issues of this era of vast abundance and creativity in books and all media. There have been any number of efforts to address these challenges that go far beyond what any individual author or publisher can accomplish. One new effort that is trying to address the problem of online book discovery is called Shepherd. Ben Fox is the founder of this book search and recommendation website which he describes as being “Like browsing the best bookstore in the world.”

Like so many others who have become involved with the book publishing industry, he was motivated by a love of books and a desire to replicate the experience of browsing in a physical bookstore online. It’s a simple enough proposition in theory, but in practice, we know that nothing is easy for start ups, and especially so for start ups in the book industry.

I learned about Shepherd from an author I have worked with who has become a friend. Since I believe we need to foster creativity and innovation in every aspect of the book delivery chain, I wanted to talk to Ben to find out more about what he is doing, how he is doing it, and how he feels he can make this effort a success.

In a fairly short time, Shepherd has built a robust offering, with book lists of all kinds, and direct connections on the site to a large number of active authors.

Visit Shepherd.com and see for yourself what Ben Fox is doing. It would be interesting to me to hear what you think of it. Does Shepherd help you find books you might not otherwise have discovered? Does meeting authors online make a difference to your sense of their books and your willingness to buy and read them? Does Shepherd succeed in creating an online book browsing experience that matches what a great bookstore can do?

“I love walking around the bookstore and browsing until something grabs my attention. I want to bring that experience online. I want to help readers bump into books they would otherwise not find. And, help them follow their curiosity to new places.

And, I want to help authors meet more readers. Authors illuminate our world, take us on faraway journeys, and entertain us. There is a growing trend that authors have to become their own marketing team. That concerns me because it takes time away from writing and is very hard to do. One of my long-term goals is to help authors market themselves and give them more time to write.” — Ben Fox

It’s pretty obvious that retail shopping is changing. As readers, we need to figure out new ways to discover books, and for writers and publishers, it is crucial that there are a variety of different ways for us to reach out to readers when we have books we want them to know about. I hope Shepherd will succeed.

Publishing Talks: Interview with Roxanne Coady of R.J. Julia Booksellers

June 17, 2021 by  
Filed under PublishingTalks, The Future

Publishing Talks began as a series of conversations with book industry professionals and others involved in media and technology, mostly talking about the future of publishing, books, and culture. I’ve spent time talking with people in the book industry about how publishing is evolving in the context of technology, culture, and economics.

Some time ago, this series broadened to include conversations that go beyond the future of publishing. In an effort to document the literary world, I’ve talked with a variety of editors, publishers, booksellers, and others who have been innovators and leaders in independent publishing in the past and in the present.

These conversations have been inspirational to me on many levels. I have gotten to speak with visionaries and entrepreneurs, as well as editors and publishers who have influenced and changed contemporary literature and culture. I’ve also had the opportunity to speak with a number of friends and colleagues I have known over the many years I have been in the book business.

Bookstores have been an essential part of my entire life, even from early childhood, one benefit of growing up with a writer as father. Independent bookselling thrived from the late seventies into the late 1990’s, no doubt reflecting the Baby Boomer generation’s enthusiasm for books and ideas. The last twenty or more years have been very different, and now there are far fewer communities that support bookstores than at anytime in the past fifty years. Bookstores (along with public libraries) are a crucial element of a healthy culture, far more valuable than their size and scope would suggest. Local communities benefit from the presence of bookstores in many ways, and literary culture needs them too, as visible representations of a reading culture. Ideas grow and spread from books, but culture is also built around physically being present with one another.

So it is important for us to find ways as readers and literary citizens, to support bookstores, and it is equally important for booksellers to locate themselves, create and support communities around their stores, to support their workers and to make themselves meaningful enough to be thrive, despite the challenges of being small businesses in a mass-oriented consumer culture.

There are quite a few examples of booksellers who have made just such an impact, and their experiences and ideas are important for all of us to share and understand. It has been a particular pleasure for me to have known and worked with Roxanne Coady, the founder and owner of the exceptional R.J. Julia Booksellers, in Madison, Connecticut. We first met when Roxanne came to Connecticut to establish her new business after pursuing a successful career as a CPA in New York City. Over the years, I have spent many hours browsing their shelves, attending author events, and enjoying the cafe.

R.J. Julia has thrived during the period when local bookselling has faced an array of challenges, first from chain bookstores, then from Amazon and the rise of online retailing, and of course most recently, the pandemic. Throughout this time, Roxanne and her staff have innovated on many levels, including creating a drive-by pickup window for busy parents, putting on over 300 events a year (some of which are with celebrity authors), establishing an active email newsletter, providing online sales with speedy service, podcasting, and building an active book club. Throughout, the emphasis on community, care for staff as individuals, and listening to customers have been paramount characteristics of the enterprise. There is a bit of practical magic at work there, I think.

After more than 30 years of hard work and success, it’s obvious that Roxanne has quite a bit to say about what it takes to be a successful bookseller, to be a locally based business, and to be a crucial part of literary culture. I believe that our conversation should be meaningful for anyone interested in the future success of bookstores and the importance of building a real literary culture within a society that does not put enough value on books, authors, writing.

We need more bookstores! Visit the R.J. Julia Bookseller website and sign up for their newsletter.

Publishing Talks: Interview with Angus Yuen-Killick of Red Comet Press

Publishing Talks began as a series of conversations with book industry professionals and others involved in media and technology, mostly about the future of publishing, books, and culture. I’ve spent time in conversation with people in and around the book industry talking about its evolution in the contexts of technology, culture, and economics.

Later, this series broadened to include conversations that go beyond the future of publishing. In an effort to document the current and recent past of book publishing, I’ve talked with a variety of editors, publishers and others who have been innovators and leaders of all kinds, past and present.

These conversations have been inspirational to me on many levels. I have gotten to speak with visionaries and entrepreneurs, as well as editors and publishers who have influenced and changed contemporary literature and culture. I’ve also had the opportunity to speak with a number of friends and colleagues whose work has influenced my own.

One such person is Angus Yuen-Killick, whom I have known since the 1990s when he came to the US to set up an outpost for a small UK publisher I was working with at the time. I was immediately impressed with Angus’ energy, vision and intelligence and since then, he has gone on to have a great career in children’s book publishing, his true love in the book business.

After working for several larger children’s book publishers over many years, Angus has now founded his own publishing imprint, Red Comet Press, about which he says:

“This is the realization of a long-held dream. The past year has forced us to reevaluate our priorities and reflect on our future. Launching a new publishing company seemed at once a crazy proposition, but also the absolute right thing to do.

At Red Comet Press, we will focus on the craft of publishing and curating a list of hand-picked titles. We will shepherd them through the publishing process, from creator to reader, with care and attention to detail. When we acquired these first books, it was a sign. They are inventive, surprising, touching, and multi-layered—and they remind me, upon every reading, of the passion and creativity that drew me to this business in the first place.”

Angus was interviewed earlier this year in Publishers Weekly, where he said “When I first started in the business, I worked at a tiny poetry publishing company in the north of England. My dad was an editor there and I was exposed to every aspect of the publishing process. When I left Macmillan last year and was trying to figure out the next step in my career after 30 years in corporate publishing, I realized that my dream was returning to that model of shepherding a list of books from the beginning to the end. This felt like the right thing for me to do next.”

Angus has help from his husband, Michael Yuen-Killick, a talented graphic designer, who serves as creative director for Red Comet, and a raft of friends and associates drawn from his many years of publishing. During his more than thirty years in book publishing, Angus has worked in key roles at various houses, including Macmillan, Penguin, Disney, and DK. I doubt there is anyone in children’s book publishing he does not know; he is widely respected and admired by his colleagues, and by many authors and illustrators as well.

It is always stimulating and fun for me to speak with Angus, so having him as a guest here is a special pleasure. If you are interested in the particular challenges of children’s book publishing, you will learn a great deal from Angus even from this brief interview. His knowledge and experience is unmatched. His enthusiasm and intelligence are often inspirational. And the books he publishes at Red Comet are going to be fantastic too. I am really looking forward to seeing his first list of books later this year.

Publishing Talks: David Wilk interviews Mary Gannon of CLMP

Publishing Talks began as a series of conversations with book industry professionals and others involved in media and technology, mostly talking about the future of publishing, books, and culture. As every media business continues to experience disruption and change, I’ve spent time talking with some of the people involved in our industry about how publishing might evolve as it is affected by technology and the larger context of culture and economics.

Some time back, this series broadened to include conversations that go beyond the future of publishing. In an effort to document the literary world, I’ve talked with a variety of editors, publishers and arts professionals who have been innovators and leaders in independent publishing in the past and the present, and continue to explore the ebb and flow of writing, books, and publishing in all sorts of forms and formats, as change continues to be the one constant we can count on.

Mary Gannon is the Executive Director of the Community of Literary Magazines and Presses, a now more than fifty-year-old nonprofit that is the primary organization in the US supporting the literary publishing community. There are hundreds of publications of all sizes that benefit from CLMP’s work, some well-established, others that are start-ups, and many others in various stages of growth and development. Some have institutional support, while the majority are supported only by the work of volunteers and readers.

Mary is herself a poet, and has worked in the literary community for many years. She well understands the struggles and needs of the community she serves. Before joining CLMP in 2018, she was the Associate Director and Director of Content for the Academy of American Poets, and before that she was the Editorial Director of Poets & Writers, the country’s largest nonprofit organization serving poets and literary writers.

Mary has published numerous articles about publishing and the literary field, as well as book reviews in a variety of journals. With her husband, Poets & Writers Magazine Editor-in-Chief Kevin Larimer, she wrote The Poets & Writers Complete Guide to Being a Writer, published by Avid Reader Press/Simon & Schuster April, 2020.

I’ve wanted to talk to Mary for some time about the state of the independent literary community. Now, with the COVID pandemic having such an impact, especially so on the arts (to the point of crisis for many) it’s an important time for a conversation about the current state and future prospects of literary publishing.

CLMP was founded in 1967 by writers and editors, including Russell Banks (whom I interviewed in 2018.) It offers a range of services and funding to magazines and literary publishers. Visit the CLMP website for more information or to make a donation in support of its vital work to support independent literary culture.

Disclosure: I am currently proud to be a member of the board of trustees of CLMP.

Publishing Talks: David Wilk interviews Brian Birnbaum of Dead Rabbits

December 31, 2019 by  
Filed under PublishingTalks, The Future

Publishing Talks began as a series of conversations with book industry professionals and others involved in media and technology, mostly talking about the future of publishing, books, and culture. As every media business continues to experience disruption and change, I’ve spent time talking with some of the people involved in our industry about how publishing might evolve as it is affected by technology and the larger context of culture and economics.

Some time back, this interview series broadened to include conversations that go beyond the future of publishing. In an effort to document the literary world, I’ve talked with a variety of editors and publishers who have been innovators and leaders in independent publishing in the past and the present, and continue to explore the ebb and flow of writing, books, and publishing in all sorts of forms and formats, as change continues to be the one constant we can count on.

There are many reasons to establish an independent literary venture, but usually the urge is based in the most basic impulse to publish, i.e. make public, work that matters, either to an individual, or a group of writers clustered around a particular geography or literary pursuit. Dead Rabbits is one such new venture. Its founders began by creating a poetry reading in a place that was underserved. The Dead Rabbits Reading Series was founded in 2014 by Devin Kelly (Sarah Lawrence MFA ’15), Katie Longofono (Sarah Lawrence MFA ’14), and Katie Rainey (Sarah Lawrence MFA ’14) as a way of providing a place for an emerging young New York City literary scene to exist and thrive in Upper Manhattan.

Out of that extremely successful undertaking – with a long list of readers with whom I confess I was not familiar – Katie Rainey, Jonathan Lee Kay and Brian Birnbaum subsequently founded Dead Rabbits Books (“Books that Matter”). Their first publication is Brian Birnbaum’s novel, Emerald City, with several more books planned and ambitions to establish a long term self sustaining publishing venture.

I’ve talked to many folks in publishing who have spent years at their work and thought it would be a useful counterpoint to talk to someone new, on the other end of the spectrum, is just beginning the struggle to publish and reach readers in new ways that have continued to emerge over the past few years.

Dead Rabbits is emblematic of a new generation of writers and editors that is in many ways wrestling with the same challenges that have faced every generation before them, but the current environment is also very different than it has been at any time in the past. Social media creates unmatched opportunities for communication and at the same time a vast array of issues for any new enterprise trying to be discovered. It seems there are more poets and independent presses than ever, all competing for an audience of readers for whom poetry is yet another option for consumption alongside every other media form. Which makes this a very interesting time indeed. Good luck to Dead Rabbits, (in all their various literary ventures) – this is a group of young literary adventurers who seem to have some very good ideas as well as access to some very good writing. Anyone interested in the current literary scene should listen to this podcast.

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